You know this article just shows how Topsy Turvy America has gotten. We have made a complete 180% turn around from our first 175 yrs of government officials believing it was their right and duty to encourage Christianity in public schools to now being a criminal offense. I just don’t have the words to express how insane this is, especially since you consider we haven’t changed the 1st amendment in any way shape or form through Congress making a new law. It is the courts that are making new laws today and that’s unconstitutional. In the video I’ve posted with this article the Liberty Counsel attorney says the ACLU wanted the to have the Student President banned from speaking at graduation because she was a Christian and “MIGHT” say something offensive…….MIGHT? What a disgrace to the founding fathers, our country’s Christian heritage and this country’s Constitution. Anyway here’s this amazing and shameful story.
Noah Webster (founder of Webster’s dictionary) “The Bible was America’s basic textbook in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]
“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]
George Washington, “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs attempting to convince them to send their children to American schools... May 12, 1779]
Florida administrators stand trial for prayer in school
Frank Lay, Pace High School principal, and Robert Freeman, the school’s athletic director, will appear on criminal contempt charges for offering public prayer in a public school. The administrators face up to 6 months in jail and a $5,000 fine for offering a mealtime prayer. Lay and Freeman go on trial today at a federal district court in Pensacola for breaching the conditions of a lawsuit settlement reached last year with the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). By violating the court order, the two are in danger of being found in contempt of court.
Pace High School, located in Florida’s Santa Rosa County School District, is a school of more than 1,800 students. Pace is known by many as “the Baptist Academy.” For years, teachers and staff delivered prayers, mandated students complete religious-oriented assignments and encouraged involvement in religious clubs. Teachers offered Bible readings or biblical interpretations and talked about the churches they attended. Christian prayers during sporting events and other activities were common. All this was encouraged and endorsed by Principal Frank Lay.
The school district has allowed flagrant violations of the First Amendment for years. The Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to “embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.”
After years of warnings and abuse, last year the ACLU finally filed a lawsuit against the Santa Rosa County School District, claiming that teachers and administration “endorsed” religion. Rather than fight, the School District consented to the entry of an order that prohibited, among other things, all prayer at school-sponsored events. Nine days after Lay signed the temporary injunction, he was accused of violating the order.
While both men are guilty, Lay deserves some time in jail. Lay was the one in charge. Lay asked Freeman to violate the court order. Lay knowingly asked and encouraged a subordinate to break the law. Lay’s contempt for the law and the constitution are reprehensible. His promotion and enforcement of Christianity within his school is truly criminal. Perhaps the greatest crime was that Lay was allowed to promote his religion for years unchecked. It is clear he hired faculty and staff who would support his agenda of proselytizing and evangelizing public school students. Such behavior is despicable, and deserves the full penalty of the law.
Principal Lay was warned repeatedly. He signed a document giving his word he would not engage in such activity only a week prior. Yet he violated the court order; he demonstrated that he was not a man of his word – his signature, his bond, his guarantee – meant nothing.
It would send a positive message to the kids if he served some jail time. No one is above the law. Those who break the law should be punished.
Lay showed contempt for the law. He abused his position of authority. As such, he is incompetent, and should not be allowed to lead a public institution such as a high school. He brings shame to himself and his community. His actions show a disrespect for faculty, students, and the nation.
babybttrfly
Steve Hilton
Mike
Aug 17, 2009 @ 23:03:34
Quoting you:
“We have made a complete 180% turn around from our first 175 yrs of government officials believing it was their right and duty to encourage Christianity in public schools to now being a criminal offense.”
Pardon me but I beg to differ.
That statement of yours is totally incorrect and biased towards your religious believes.
For example let’s see what Benjamin Franklin said:
“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
Then lets see what John Adams said about it:
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” – written on the Treaty of Tripoly, article 11.
You see, I find quite interesting that last quote because you say that officials believed encouraging Christianity was their right and duty while the founders of the United States of America believed quite the contrary.
Still doubting? Lets quote more founders:
In 1774 James Madison said: “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” And also: “In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
Thomas Jefferson had been quoted saying: “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.” And also: “Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.”
Abraham Lincoln also has a saying about religion: “The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.”
But finally I want to close this comment with two quotes that put the nail in to the coffin to your opinion about that principal going on trial, which I think he rightly deserves. Is about time we separate schools and government from those idiotic fairy tales contained in the best seller fiction book of all time: the bible, and to punish all those who want to impose those beliefs into others. I have no issue if you want to believe in pink unicorns or in an imaginary friend you call god, but when you say is constitutionally valid to go on imposing your beliefs and mixing school teachings and government actions with religious beliefs then I have a problem.
So to that end I’m quoting Theodore Roosevelt: “To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life.”
And finally, saving the best quote to the last I quote Theodore Roosevelt with the following: “I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be nonsectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools.”
I know you wont understand and you wont accept those ideas before but I want to tell you that religion, aside from personal beliefs one may have, has no business in this country.
Later.
Aug 18, 2009 @ 09:52:05
Drloera ……..thank you for your comment… but I stand by my statement, the founding fathers and history would as well. I love to debate this topic and have researched it for years now. I find it amazing most people quote the same people as Franklin, Jefferson, Madison and Lincoln. These are the least Christian of all the signers of the Constitution (Jefferson didn’t sign it), but there were 56 signers of the Constitution and these 4 or 5 men hardly represent the rest of the 56 when it came to the Christian religion.
You might choose next time to use a different quote from Ben Franklin. This is a partial quote taken out of context. The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
– Benjamin Franklin, the incompatibility of faith and reason, Poor Richard’s Almanack (1758) Any Christian would understand what Franklin is saying,this is not an anti-Christian statement as you obviously think it is.
“I know you wont understand and you wont accept those ideas before but I want to tell you that religion, aside from personal beliefs one may have, has no business in this country.”
No I don’t because they are contrary to historical facts and the founding fathers wouldn’t agree with you.
Let’s look at the Treaty of Tripoli and get it over with. The reason this was written is because of the muslims attacking our ships and we didn’t want a war with them at this time. So this treaty was made and was signed by George Washington if my memory serves me correctly. It is in fact a true statement that we are not a Christian nation to the extent that we in America don’t have a national Christian church as they do in England with the Church of England and that is what the founding fathers meant, plain and simple. Many other facts which I will present will show the intent of the founding fathers contrary to your statements, since they truly didn’t see anything wrong with publicly encouraging the Christian faith. The founding fathers didn’t want a “national Christian Church” as in England, but didn’t see anything wrong promoting or encouraging the Christian religion. In fact they did it all the time. Here are only a few examples of this.
“Let the children be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. Furthermore, anyone who opposes the reading of bibles in schools is a “Great Enemy to mankind” according to Benjamin Rush, the Father of American Psychiatry and one of the founders of fathers of America.
In Benjamin Franklin’s 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach “the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.”
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as “a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone.”
Charles Carroll – signer of the Declaration of Independence |
” Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure…are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.” [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]
John Witherspoon born in 1722,Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University —He became an ordained minister of the Gospel..
“Those who are vested with civil authority ought also, with much care, to promote religion and good morals among all under their government.” Op. cit., Vol. IV, p. 265, from his “Sermon Delivered at Public Thanksgiving After Peace.”
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”……Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
So you think when Madison said,“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”, maybe he didn’t mean what you think he did?
George Washington, “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
Every president of the United States (with only one possible exception) has been administered the oath of office with his hand on the Bible, ending with the words “so help me God.”
The Supreme Court begins every proceeding with the ringing proclamation, “God save the United States and this Honorable Court.”
Throughout our history, the executive and legislative branches have decreed national days of fasting and prayer.
Public offices and public schools close in observance of religious holidays.
In conclusion: The Sunday following Mr. Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut in 1801 which contained the phrase “thin wall of separation between the church and the state”, Mr. Jefferson attended a church service conducted by John Leland, a prominent Baptist minister, in the halls of the House of Representatives. Throughout his presidency, he attended similar services, which were often held in the north wing of the Capitol. From 1807 to 1857 church services were held in a variety of government buildings where Congress, the Supreme Court, the War Office, and the Treasury were headquartered,which were authorized by Jefferson. Also at times an over flow crowd of 2,000 would attend services. Obviously neither Jefferson nor any other officials in the early Republic understood separation between church and state to mean that the federal government was precluded from permitting active support of the Christian religion. Indeed, they plainly believed that the duty of civil government was to encourage public professions of faith.
Either the Founders had no idea what they meant or had created with the Constitution, or the federal courts and the Supreme Court of the United States today has invented another document out of what our forefathers wrote, and meant when it was written!
Aug 18, 2009 @ 14:51:55
Quoting you:
“These are the least Christian of all the signers of the Constitution…”
Yeah sure, their thoughts are not valid just because they do not agree with you? That seems to be your overall point which renders all of your lengthy post thereafter useless specially because you are discarding them just because they were “the least christians.” Nice try buddy.
By the way Thomas Jefferson was not only the 3rd President, but also drafted the Declaration of Independence which makes him even more important than the others.
Besides, aside from John Jay and Alexander Hamilton, the other 5 Founding Fathers were soundly in favor of separating religion from state including government and education. That sounds to me 5 (Benajmin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison) vs 2 or are you gonna say that the 2 “more christians” are more important and have more weight than the other 5? If that’s the case you are completely biased in favor of your religion views which further discards your thoughts about the issue. (This is according to historian Richard B. Morris who in his book “Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers” identified the previously mentioned seven politicians as the key founding fathers excluding Benjamin Rush and others who just signed but never had any important saying on the Declaration of Independence).
Whether they were or not the least Christians has nothing to do with the fact that they meant to separate state from church whe they created the United States of America and they said so VERY clearly and explicitly.
Quoting you again: “So you think when Madison said,“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”, maybe he didn’t mean what you think he did?”
Nope, he meant what he said (further down you will understand why). The idea that he didn’t mean what he said is your very own assumption and your self interpretation of what he said and only based on your bias towards your religious views.
You said: “No I don’t because they are contrary to historical facts and the founding fathers wouldn’t agree with you.”
Again I beg to differ and here is why:
Thomas Jefferson said the following:
“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.” in a 1787 letter to his nephew.
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
“To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that ‘God is a spirit,’ but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter.” in a letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820.
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” in Notes on Virginia.
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823.
“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own” Letter to H. Spafford, 1814.
“But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State.” in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810.
“…an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ…the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’” From Jefferson’s biography.
“I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another’s creed. I have judged others’ religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read.”
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”
“It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist.”
Now lets move on with James Madison who said:
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
“…the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State” Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819.
“Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together” Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822.
Now the following on the list is John Adams:
“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”
“Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.”
“But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.”
“What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion’s Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years.” Letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in In God We Trust and 2000 Years of Disbelief.
“The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.” in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815.
“God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.” this “awful blashpemy” that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardi.
“It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [formation of the American governments] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven…”
Now, Ben Franklin, one of your favs is next, which by the way was not taken out of context because he also said:
“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.” in Franklin’s Autobiography.
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absented myself from Christian assemblies.”
As you can see, Benjamin Franklin has said several times anti-christian/church statements which you christians love to misinterpret and present in a different context suited to your very own needs.
Now following the list, the next one is George Washington who said the following:
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792.
Also, if you actually read his biography, you will know that after the revolution, he accompanied his wife to church but he never take communion and he would regularly leave the service before that. That was until after being admonished by a rector and thus stopping to attend communion Sundays at all.
In Washington’s own words as quoted by Dr. Abercrombie “I have never been a communicant.”
So as you can see, according to historical facts and the Founding Fathers themselves they wouldn’t agree with you and your destructive religious views.
Quoting you again:
“Every president of the United States (with only one possible exception) has been administered the oath of office with his hand on the Bible, ending with the words “so help me God.”
The Supreme Court begins every proceeding with the ringing proclamation, “God save the United States and this Honorable Court.”
Throughout our history, the executive and legislative branches have decreed national days of fasting and prayer.”
That’s mere tradition being carried by years of forced christian indoctrination since the creation of the bible.
I would also like to point to Brooke Allen who said the following:
“Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton’s flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of “foreign aid”; according to another, he simply said “we forgot.” But as Hamilton’s biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important.”
And another quote (a large one) from the same author:
More blatant official references to a deity date from long after the founding period: “In God We Trust” did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and “under God” was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004].
In 1797 our government concluded a “Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary,” now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words:
As the Government of the United States…is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion–as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen–and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate’s history. There is no record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today.
The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to erect, in Thomas Jefferson’s words, “a wall of separation between church and state.” John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans–the fundamentalists of their day–would “whip and crop, and pillory and roast.” The historical epoch had afforded these men ample opportunity to observe the corruption to which established priesthoods were liable, as well as “the impious presumption of legislators and rulers,” as Jefferson wrote, “civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time.”
If we define a Christian as a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then it is safe to say that some of the key Founding Fathers were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists–that is, they believed in one Supreme Being but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of the Christian Church; the word of the Creator, they believed, could best be read in Nature. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian, but he, too, in his private correspondence seems more deist than Christian.
George Washington and James Madison also leaned toward deism, although neither took much interest in religious matters.”
Sorry for the long quote but I couldn’t have expressed it better.
In essence, those previous words are the real meaning of the Founding Fathers, and as you can see they don’t support religion interference neither in the government nor in the public education system.
You can read the whole article and the supporting evidence that takes all the way down your position here in this link http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen
So finally to end this lengthy discussion once and for all I would like to quote General and U.S. President Ulysses S. Grant who echoes the ideas of the Founding Fathers:
“Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and the state forever separated.”
I quoted him because those words of him have a lot of relevance to the news about the trial of that principal who violated a court order to not say prayers or impose his beliefs in school events.
He rightly deserves to be tried and punished, and I’m happy that the U.S. courts and legal system are finally recognizing and enforcing what the Founding Fathers sought when they created the U.S. and that is the complete separation of religion from the state.
Hope you have learned a bit of history today while I dispelled erroneous ideas and beliefs about the Founding Fathers that you christians (and religious people overall) love to spread in order to hide the truth.
But then it comes to my mind that probably you wont understand anything said here. After all you believe in irrational things and fairy tales about imaginary entities you call gods, angels, devils and virgins who conceived with out copulation and scientifically disproved theories such as the creationism or the intelligent design while at the same time leaving science aside altogether because it discredits religion completely.
In other words, what can someone expect from somebody who throws science out of the window and happily accepts beliefs in magic and superstition? Nothing but a narrow minded, intolerant and fanatic individual who wants to blindly and foolishly impose his or her dumb beliefs into everybody, sometimes, even by force.
Thanks to such people the greatest atrocities in this world have been committed.
Aug 18, 2009 @ 15:42:36
“Yeah sure, their thoughts are not valid just because they do not agree with you? That seems to be your overall point which renders all of your lengthy post thereafter useless specially because you are discarding them just because they were “the least christians.” Nice try buddy.”
Didn’t say their thoughts weren’t valid….just said they didn’t speak for the other 95% of the founders when it came to religion. When you honestly study the founders you will find that even the so called “deist of their day were more like Christians of today than you’d think they were. For instance Benjamin Franklin said, “History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity
of a public religion. . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern. (Proposals Relating to the Education of Youth in Pennsylvania, 1749)
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as “a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone.” Hardly a deist as we would think of today.
Now let’s take George Washington in context of what he meant when he said, “Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792.”
Now here’s what ole George meant on this one. It’s not a anti-Christian statement like you think it is. He was talking about the differences in beliefs of the different sects of Christianity and hoping they could reconcile instead of disagreeing. So it was in 1792 — and so it remains in 2009, all Christian sects still have disagreements.
I’m not going to attempt to answer such an extremely long post.
Here’s what the 1892 Supreme Court said in Holy Trinity vs. United States.
The Court has discussed the historical role of religion in our society and concluded that “[t]here is an unbroken history of official acknowledgment by all three branches of government of the role of religion in American life from at least 1789.”
The Supreme Court in 1892 declared in Holy Trinity Church v. U.S., 143 U.S. 457, that this is a Christian nation (by this they mean the majority of people and their actions). Justice David J Brewer, Chief Justice on the Supreme Court 1892 said that “These (87 precedents) and many other matters which might be noticed add volumes of unofficial documents to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.” In Holy Trinity the Supreme Court quoted 87 previous decisions, or precedents, without exhaustively listing them all now. The Court found that 87 precedents were completely adequate to justify their decision. This number of precedents is in stark contrast to the decisions later announced by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1960′s which had no precedents to justify their decisions, but instead made new law, which is unconstitutional for the courts to do.According to the Constitution law making is delegated to Congress only.
Aug 18, 2009 @ 21:49:37
drloera ..as an after thought here. Your problem is not with the founding fathers, but with Christianity. In thinking about that, this scripture came to my mind. It applies to many people today.
Paul wrote in I Corinthians 1:17-25
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Aug 19, 2009 @ 21:50:04
I wish only to post two quotes as a comment, first from Fisher Ames, who was a Founder of this great nation, and the framer of the First Amendment to the Constitution:
Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.
And what happens to those who deny that warning? This one is from the Framer of the Universe, Christ Jesus in 2 Peter 2:1:
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
It can be denied, it can be dissected, it can be twisted, but it will always be self evident, and it will judge the direction of this country and those who destroy it.
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Aug 20, 2009 @ 02:57:39